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First DNA results are in

November 9, 2009

Thankyou to Silva who posted this comment. The results are astounding.

I am ready to publish, my Australian Labradoodle from pure RM/TP lines has these results from her DNA analysis. I sent this to Australia so that the breed recognition would be most accurate for a dog of totally Australian mix. The first 4 are in much more significant proportions than the lower results below 0.05 of which there are a large number, Labrador was 0.04.
About 0.7 and above would indicate pure breed.

1 Poodle 0.285
2 Gerrman Shorthaired Pointer 0.086
3 Shih Tzu 0.085
4 Chow Chow 0.078

Apparently trace amounts can indicate shared markers. Looking at breed history there is NO shared breeding between poodles, labradors and Shih Tzus. Chow Chows and Shih Tzus do at least come from the same part of the world, China and Tibet. German Shorthaired Pointer maybe explains her colour.

I’m a bit stunned. The breeder was caught as badly as I have been, I do not blame HER for buying very expensive mutts with fake pedigrees and breeding them together in good faith and I won’t name her. I do blame ANGELA and BEVERLEY.

Anyone else with results to share?

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21 Comments leave one →
  1. Mary permalink
    November 9, 2009 8:50 pm

    My 3 ALD’s were part of the beta test of the Wisdom Panel DNA test before Wisdom went live a few years ago. I had one dog with some very strange results on the less reliable trace amts of DNA that they would not normally even report but they reported them to me because it was not an official report and was just part of their beta program. The other 2 were not that odd .

    My one dog was poodle and lab..with the strongest concentration of standard poodle. She also had some traces of some type of terrier but the traces were too small to be reliable.

    My 2nd dog was standard and miniature poodle, lab and English cocker. Again..the strongest concentration of poodle. He had many small traces of other breeds..but one again too small to be reliable. The report is on my old computer so I don’t have access to it right now..

    My 3rd dog came back poodle and English Cocker only. I know her litter mate was tested by another company who picked up some Labrador in him. Results can vary between litter mates because a specific breeds DNA is not even divided between litter mates except an an F1.

    I think the problem with these DNA tests are… most are only reliable up to either the grandparent or great grandparent level..beyond that the computer does a best guess when the traces are too small .
    So if a lot of these ALD’s have strange breeds back too far..the tests probably won’t be able to decipher.
    But if these trace amts are consistent with others who may do DNA testing on similar bloodlines..perhaps the trace amts are true.

    I know Angela admitted that she experimented with infusing the Afghan Hound a long time ago

    Curious what company you used, to do you DNA test?

    I know in the USA there are various company’s..unfortunately they don’t guarantee results originating from dogs other than the USA since their genetic database was built using purebreds from the USA.

    Would love to see a picture of your dog and the pedigree..

    The Shih Tzu is very believable since Winsomore looks just like one. Is Winnie in your dogs pedigree?

  2. November 10, 2009 4:13 am

    Personally, I think the DNA analyses on dog breeds are something of a fantasy, at best — and the results here seem to support that. The poodle quotient is much higher than what is indicated here, in the RM/ TP lines, according to all pedigrees and common knowledge, and the absence of Labrador Retriever in the top four also indicates a problem (a problem with the DNA analyses, that is). As for German Short-Haired Pointer…this would be the last thing that any breeder would have infused into the Labradoodle to create low-shedding, even-tempered dogs.

  3. heike allison permalink
    November 10, 2009 5:14 am

    So much for carefully chosen infusions! Whether it was Angela or Beverley that originally produced this poodle cocktail, the fact remains they shared breeding dogs and their lines are all mixed together. This can only mean, not a single pedigree would be true. As for her touted DNA profiling, rubbish!!

    • Mary permalink
      November 10, 2009 2:03 pm

      heike.. DNA profiling is not the same as DNA breed analysis.
      Profiling just proves parentage..similar to what people do when they want to know who the father of their baby is.

      Bev claims to have started to do DNA profiling because of all the allegations of false pedigrees as to which dogs are really the real parents/grandparents.
      When we challenged her years ago about parentage on a particular dog and wanted DNA proof..she said we would get our proof to clear her name, because she was going to start DNA profiling all her dogs after her move to her new location. She was tired of all the allegations! Within a week after our request this dog vanished! Thanks to the efforts of others..they managed to locate this dog and provided the ALAA with his DNA .
      I guess she never thought someone would locate him!

      When confronted..she natually blamed the unsupervised mating on someone else..like she always blames everyone else when she is caught

  4. Lisa Ryan permalink
    November 10, 2009 10:10 am

    DNA testing for heritage in Australia has come along way in recent years– it has to be accurate to withstand the rigors of disputes in Australian courts.

    The results support the known fact that the pedigrees are false, and anyone who has started their own Labradoodle breeding on RM/TP dogs will have the exact same issues. The quotient is what the results confirm. The DNA labs here don’t make it up as they like Beverly Manners does. Any quotient based on a RM pedigree or the word of someone like Beverly Manners, who has been found out time and time again, to be highly dishonest, is the real fantasy. What common knowledge ?. Who amongst you knew exactly what she was breeding with what and to what and from where ?

    Given the TP and RM links with local puppy farmers, why wouldn’t there be German Short Haired Pointer in the cocktails, or anything and everything else for that matter. Some of the above comments still refer to Beverly Manners as a breeder ? This is certainly not my idea of a breeder of pure bred or cross bred labradoodle dogs by any wild stretch of the imagination.

    All she cared about was cheap and available stock.

  5. Marc permalink
    November 10, 2009 1:13 pm

    The Wall Street Journal wrote an article on Dog DNA testing, the main message in the story is that the test results may give you insight on the background of your dog, but you can expect fall positives given how that they are initial stages of building their dog dna databases. Below is an excerpt from the article.

    “But geneticists say the DNA of dogs even within a given breed can vary widely depending on the country they are from. In addition, breeds within the same group — such as terrier — can be very similar genetically. Also, a single dog has billions of bases, building blocks of the genome, and these DNA labs only look at a few hundred. What’s more, there are thought to be as many as 400 dog breeds world-wide — roughly 160 of which are recognized by the American Kennel Club — and it would be impossible to know for sure that a breed has a unique genetic sequence unless every one of the breeds was analyzed.”

  6. silva permalink
    November 10, 2009 1:45 pm

    If I look hard I can actually see GSP in her, I believe it but luckily she doesn’t shed! Curtis, the proportion of poodle was lower than I was expecting from her pedigree now we are told that the Im A Collectors dogs are likely to be just one poodle. I know to ignore the very tiny traces of shared markers (Mary is quite correct, I did get all the results as this was a Beta test) and there were several notes to tell me how to read it. I think it is better to test Australian dogs with an Australian database although I suppose I could do the Wisdom as well in the States.
    I will not post about the family tree as the breeder does not deserve to be singled out. I don’t want to put pressure on her as that doesn’t seem fair but I would like her to make her views known as soon as possible… PLEASE.

    Dogs were bought from pounds, from trading papers and from other puppy farms as well, so there is no need to wonder how GSP is in my dog but only how the founder breeders of ALD’s got away with it for so long.

    I have sent the full results to the site so that they know they are genuine.
    Heike, will you be DNA testing too?

  7. Lisa Ryan permalink
    November 10, 2009 11:39 pm

    Mary is correct DNA profiling and breed analysis are different and Silva is also correct – if you are trying to confirm heritage with an Australian based dog, you need to use Australian DNA testing. I don’t know how old the Wall Street Journal article referred to by Marc is, but DNA heritage analysis has moved forward in leaps and bounds in the last year or so in Australia. Silva’s approach is 100% appropriate.

    What I didn’t know was the Beverly Manners’s DNA profiling was to counter issues with false pedigrees and allegations raised some time ago. While I never accepted Beverly’s claims that she was a leader in DNA testing/profiling because as a registered breeder, I know many have pioneered this field long before Beverly Manners. I did however, based on Bev’s advice that she had been DNA testing, think that she had been DNA testing responsibly to isolate and eradicate hereditary issues, not to defend allegations about her false pedigrees. What a complete and utter joke. This woman has pulled off up until now the ‘dog’ scam of the century !

    My understanding is that the DNA ‘heritage’ testing also confirms any hereditary health issues so the one test and analysis does it all (in Australia).

    Of most concern is the dogs – used and abused throughout, continually and still today. The fraud needs to be dealt with as does all the dishonesty and financial loss others will suffer however, the single most important consideration is freeing these RM dogs now. The ones like Ellie, can’t be saved and many like her. There are however many still alive and suffering who need help. The dogs must be the priority and ensuring Beverly Manners is never again allowed to operate another hellhole.

  8. heike allison permalink
    November 11, 2009 6:22 am

    Silva, my dogs are from RM/TP lines. One of my dogs is from TP Tall Story and Rutland Lil Brett and TP Ima Collectors and TP Fantasy Irland. There is a lot of poodles in these lines. The other has same dam and different sire, one side is TP all the way back and the other is poodle all the way back. Looking at both my girls, one definitly looks poodle and cocker spaniel. The other is almost all poodle. I did wonder if lab would come up in testing.

    • Joyce Tabor permalink
      February 14, 2010 4:38 am

      You must know by now that RM Lil Brett is a Spoodle not an Australian Labradoodle.

  9. Ellie permalink
    November 11, 2009 7:40 pm

    I notice that Beverley Manners has now listed on her website the breeders who are currently supporting her and purchasing her breeding dogs/puppies.

    Thank you Beverley – for saving us the trouble of deciding who NOT TO BUY a Labradoodle puppy from.

    We will NOT buy puppies from breeders who support your lies and deceipt

  10. Lisa Ryan permalink
    November 12, 2009 6:19 am

    Absolutely agree with Ellie’s comments. Any breeder who would not only support the RM lies and deceipt but ignore the cruelty and RM dog abuse in spite of all the evidence, the photos and statements, is definately NOT the type of breeder anyone would wish to deal with.

    The RM site also states “Rutland Manor is about quality, not quantity”. I think an average of 400 cross bred puppies of unknown cocktail mix and match pedigree heritage per annum says it all in regards to both QUANTITY and QUALITY ! And that is exactly what RM will go down as in the history books as will its guru founder.

  11. Beth permalink
    November 15, 2009 9:12 pm

    After breeding showing, exhibiting competing training and handling purebred dogs for more than 10 years I absolutley know without a doubt that the Australian Labradoodles that I own, train breed and share with others are by far the most intelligent, intuitive amazing dogs that I have ever owned. I have placed dogs for service dogs, companions,and future breeding dogs. My most rewarding is in homes of service which this breed excells, no other breed can match this.

    I choose to move forward, and encourage everone to embrace the dogs that you own, love, breed and share with others. Evaluate their strenghts, faults and breed to better them for soundness, temperment and quality. NO one can undo the past and all of the allegations, finger pointing and such does not do anyone any good. Afer all the dogs that live with you, share your home and have become the incomparable companions for thousands across the world would not be in existence if it were not for the RM and TP lines that were established.

    If in deed that the RM dogs or dogs from any other Kennel are in danger from their environment I would support the removal of them from their owners.

    Move on and breed better dogs.

  12. November 17, 2009 3:59 am

    I’m with Beth on this one. If the issue is RM’s care and handling of the dogs, and it can be verified by the local authorities in charge of overseeing this that there are genuine problems, there is no question but to seek removal of the dogs from the owners.

    If the question is something else…pedigrees….infusions…DNA analyses….you name it….I’m out, personally. The RM/ TP dogs are beyond compare, as anyone who has one, or raises one, knows. How exactly the breed arrived to the point where it is today is of no great concern to me. Instead, I focus on the results, which are the dogs and puppies I work with and train every day. No other breed comes close to this one, in my view, as a companion dog, a therapy dog, or a service dog. None.

    The issues here began — and should end — with RM’s treatment of the dogs, past and present, rather than becoming a pointless discussion of “what’s in there.” You either like the dogs, or you don’t. And leave it at that.

    Curtis

    • Joyce Tabor permalink
      February 14, 2010 5:07 am

      I breed Labradoodles, too. Both types – some from 100% American stock and some from RM/TP lines. If you pick the right dogs to mate there is NO difference in the wonderful traits that they exhibit. The RM/TP blood puppies are no different from the ones I produce from pure American combinations.

      This tells me that the ‘secret recipe’ about the blending of these dogs is not that secret or complex. It is all about choosing great tempered dogs from proven and health-tested stock with pedigrees that you can check on from certified organizations like the AKC, OFA, CERF, Vet Gen, etc. They are fabulous dogs, but you don’t need the RM or TP lines to have great Labradoodles.

      What RM/TP did was market a great breed combination. Then realized a lot of money could be acquired by churning great numbers of them. The smoke screen of glossy pictures of cute nurseries and green pastures they hid behind was one of the greatest scams ever. They duped the National Geographic and many others.

      In the U.S. a big stink is made about Australian Multigenerational Labradoodles and how they are so much better than any of the other ‘Labradoodles’. From what I have read about inaccurate pedigrees, faulty health records, ambiguous DNA, high in-breeding coefficients, and unusual mixtures – never would I take the chance of breeding multiple generations of Authentic Australian Multigen Labradoodles to each other! In many cases, you could be breeding sister to brother along with Mother and Grandfather multiple times over. Dear Lord, what a lethal health cocktail that is! The sad fact is – YOU DON’T KNOW!

      This website has produced an incredible amount of information, exposure, proof, testimony and thousands of hours of research to show the world that what these two woman did was exploit innocent furry souls for profit and nothing more. This is what they will be known for.

      Let responsible, caring breeders of these lovely animals carry on for the original intent of this hybrid – health, vitality, intelligence, confirmation, sound minds and genetic diversity.

      • StopRutlandManor permalink*
        February 14, 2010 6:47 am

        WELL SAID JOYCE

  13. Beth permalink
    November 22, 2009 11:41 am

    I think I would feel ripped off if I saw these results!!!

  14. Why are we forgetting the dogs ? permalink
    November 23, 2009 1:24 am

    I tend to agree with Curtis, that the issue is the dogs and their puppies FIRST AND FOREMOST. Everything else could be sorted out later DNA who was bred to who , but please please let us not forget what everyone comes together on this site for ….. THE DOGS…how they are cared for, loved, looked after, groomed, bred ….. To me it does matter ultimately what lies have been told about parentage, but for now. It should be all about the dogs. Can’t we start another thread that gets us all off the DNA one. It is secondary to the whole issue. Don’t forget the dogs.

  15. Evelyn Goronski permalink
    January 11, 2010 6:44 pm

    I was shocked to discover this website and very disheartened. I frankly don’t care whether our ASL, bred from Tegan Park lines with a couple of Rutland Manor ancestors, is a poolde, a poodle plus cocker, or some sort of “oodle” mis-mash. He is a wonderful, bright, gentle, happy dog, and I wouldn’t trade him for the world. I have always looked for the lab in him and never found any; he looks like a poodle and behaves like a poodle. I just assumed he got more of the poodle genes than his littermates. But I do feel mightily ripped off by these crazy women who cannot seem to behave decently or maturely, much less in a commericially responsible manner. I do not, repeat, do not blame our breeder, who I am convinced is operating ethically and with all good intentions. But why scam the public? These dogs are wonderful. I haven’t met a single one who isn’t bright, active, gentle and loving. Is it because by creating a fake pedigree (and then ripping off breeders in the US who accepted the pedigrees and then thought they were breeding labradoodles), RM thought they could simply make more money? If so, those responsible are not only despicable for the puppy mills they have created but for the lies they’ve told.

  16. johnny permalink
    January 14, 2010 12:50 pm

    i worked for quite a period of time at tegan park.without risking lawsuits those employed at the time should be interviewed by the authorities in reference to dealings by both angela and bev with others such as colin hams.there could be A LOT of things to surface that only god could forgive

  17. anonymous permalink
    January 15, 2010 6:59 am

    like the fact that Beverely did have dealing with Colin Ham and DID sell him dogs despite her denials.She also sold puppies to pet shops. There is proof that will be made public one day.

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